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CalCarp

A lawyer tells a bankruptcy client to "Go buy lots of expensive stuff first!" ..Is that free speech?

Last month that case was won in favor of the lawyer. It was brought by the ACLU, ..the Harvard Lawyer crowd from which Sen. Obama has emerged. The lawyer wanted our "right of free speech" to cover his advising the bankruptcy client that he should go out and buy another car or house first, before they file the bankruptcy. Sen. Obama supports the ACLU. The next President will have several opportunities to appoint U.S. Supreme Court judges. What kind of judges do we want to hire? ..Do we want judges who believe that lying on a credit application is a matter of "Free Speech"? ..Is that what Jefferson intended?
Whipsaw:

Until buying things before filing bankruptcy becomes a crime, lawyers are free, and perhaps obligated to advise people to do it. I don't approve of this, but I have never seen a credit application that asks if you are contemplating bankruptcy. The lawyer used free speech, the client probably didn't lie to get credit, and our laws and credit rating systems need overhaul to close this loophole.

Whipsaw:

This fraud requires proof of motive. I have seen cases where people bought yachts or houses and were found guilty of fraud. I have also seen people walk away with new cars and not be charged. The court and creditor must decide if they can prove fraud, and if it is worth the time. From what I have seen they rarely do. So yes, it is illegal, but difficult to prove, and rarely charged. Even if a lawyer advises it, and a client does it, it may be extremely hard to prove fraudulant motives.

Whipsaw:

Politics aside CalCarp this is a loophole and an easy one to close. It is improper during bankruptcy proceedings for a debtor to pay any single creditor more than a certain amount. It should also be illegal for a debtor to charge more than that amount, or to seek new credit after an initial meeting with a bankruptcy attorney if that meeting results in a filed bankruptcy in say one year. Then we don't have to read minds, just follow the law and reverse sales that violate it.

Whipsaw:

You're funny CalCarp. BK law is written by our congressmen and women. We pay them to do this stuff. We pay them if they don't do this stuff. Either way they get paid, might as well make them earn their money. But by now you have switched sides and are arguing against fixing the problem. I think you just need a crisis to point to and make a political argument out of. That's cool, but I am tired of politics today.

CalCarp:

The problem is NOT a lack of laws in the bk ct. ..the problem is we are contemplating electing someone to an important position who has no respect for the law, its founders, or its anthem. I will not vote for a man who diverts money from a Chicago school charity to hatch his campaign, but then sends attack dogs after Palin for wanting a state patrolman in her command removed after he Tazored his 10 yr. old stepson on purpose, and made death threats to his father-in-law! ...America deserves better than a dishonest and unfair man as its President! The bk case info was just an example of what we'll get!

CalCarp:

Issue: Does ACLU do "good work". Rule: Good work is work that improves the world. Analysis: The ACLU is advising lawyers to help defraud creditors of due payments, while knowing that fraud debilitates the honest and beneficial trades upon which a healthy world depends. Conclusion: The ACLU supports neither good trade nor an improved world, therefore can not be said to be performing "good work". (..Sorry, tg10is)

CalCarp:

Internet porn??? ..That's what you think is important????? Why doesn't the ACLU say something about the fact that 90% of all child custody cases give the family's children to the mother? ..almost never the father?? ..Where is their cry for "Equality" ..and "Equal Rights"??? The ACLU only cares about their own "rights" to throw stones at things, ..and keeping lawyers grabbing the nation's income.

CalCarp:

..this month they are hard at work with this "constitutionally protected right to file fraudulent bankruptcy cases", ..last month it was "teenager's personal right to view porn on City library computers". Yeah, ..the ALCU, ..What would we do, ..if they went out and got a job?

CalCarp:

It is not a "loophole", ..it is a "failure to disclose", ..it is "entering into a contract with bad intent", ..it is fraud. Lawyers love this "elite" theft, ..just like the Wall Street CEO's love their "elite" golden parachutes. Sen. Obama will push HARD for these kind of "elite" judges, who approach the law as if it were a Suduko puzzle to be toyed with, ..his choices supported by a Democrat controlled Congress that will accept only judges that will appease the vote count they hope to get this time and next. For me, "Free Speech" means the right to speak the truth! "Our judiciary needs to respect Common Sense. As last month's decision shows, Common Sense will not be 'handed down' by an Obama court".

CalCarp:

..and these same people want to blame poor old Hank Paulson for not being able to keep an airtight regulatory rein over the billions of transactions on Wall Street!! (..make whatever political mud out of that as you care to, ..Happy Friday!)

CalCarp:

Why don't those ACLU friends of Obama's pass a hat around and collect enough money to pay back the student loans Sen. Obama has ignored, ..after all some other poor kid might be waiting for that money so they can go to school too! (..wait, ..I forgot, ..Sen. Obama never was poor, was he? ..he probably doesn't know what it feels like.)

CalCarp:

Thank you! ...First: That credit crunch has already hit. Second: Lawyers DO know this is wrong, ..they just don't care, ..that's why they're called "lawyers"!

CalCarp:

A guy walks into a bar and sees a gorgeous babe nursing a drink. Walking
up behind her he says, 'Hi there, good looking'! How's it going'?'
Having already downed a few power drinks she turned around, faced him,
looked him straight in the eye and said, . . .

'Listen! I screw anybody, any time, anywhere, your place, my place, in the
car, front door, back door, on the ground, standing up, sitting down, naked,
with clothes on, dirty, clean and sweet, it just doesn't matter to
me. I've been doing it ever since I got out of college.... I just flat-ass love it!'

Eyes now wide with interest, he responded, 'No kidding! I'm a lawyer, too!
What firm are you with?

CalCarp:

"Just pass laws that make them give it back"??? (..Wow!) ..You must think our society is SO rich, ..and SO bored, ..that we can just "hire another bunch of lawyers to write some more laws, that will take away the things that the first set of well-paid lawyers told us we could have, if we just do it quickly and lie about it a bit!" (..WOW!!) ..Let me get this straight: Barack Obama is a lawyer, right? ..And John McCain is not? ..Thank you very much!! (.."Bailiff! ..Next case!!")

CalCarp:

10COMS Sec. 8.0 - "Thou Shalt not steal"

CalCarp:

I'm sorry, ..I forgot! In Sen. Obama's Philadelphia speech last March, Sen. Obama declared Mr. Jefferson as a man lacking in "resolution", ..so I guess his lawyer friends are free to make whatever they care to, of those Bill of Rights' words that those framers did "allow .. to future generations".

CalCarp:

Hah! ..I agree with tg10is. The client will tell the next judge "My lawyer advised me to make that purchase." And the lawyer will say, "It was my FREE SPEECH right to tell him there was a possibility that he could get away with this fraudulent purchase agreement!" (..You know, ..I'll bet this is the kind of stuff Barack and William Ayers are demanding to be taught to those "poor kids" as part of their "Reformed Educational Standards". That "old school" stuff of "work hard and don't steal" just didn't get the job done, eh?)

CalCarp:

..I agree with Mike!

MaggieD:

Attorneys will also tell people in foreclosure to take everything...appliances, toilets, copper plumbing, furnace, hot water tank, dishwasher, light fixtures, etc., etc.,....anything of value. Sad, yes? What a messed up world.

James:

Dear CalCarp,
The ACLU is a great organization that was founded to protect the rights of the poor against the Conservative power structure. Why don't you look up the Palmer Raids on wikipedia. Senator Obama was at Harvard, made President of the Law Review and gave jobs to his Conservative classmates, who were often his friends. Many of those classmates remained staunch Conservatives and became part of the American legal establishment. I look forward to the day when a Democrat is appointing Justices again.

DoesDeathDefyDemons?:

I didn't say anything about porn, I used the internet as an example. Keep your blinders on, you're doing so well being simple.

DoesDeathDefyDemons?:

Issue: Does the ACLU do good work. Try saying that on a website in China or Iran. Thanks to the ACLU, there's someone fighting daily against internet censorship. ( Soory, CalCarp), you're way out on the right wing again. Be careful, you might slip into a world in which you deny yourself the right to exist.

DoesDeathDefyDemons?:

Why does everyone attack the good work of the ACLU? Because they can!

Sure, you can twist anything to make a point, just like I did in my first two sentences. Get over it! Did you think Jefferson was some omniscient being? How about Adams? They were lawyers, too! And Jefferson went to William and Mary College. Not exactly a bastion of liberalism now, is it?

DoesDeathDefyDemons?:

No attorney would ever take them on as a client? One woed...... WRONG!!!!!!!!!!

DoesDeathDefyDemons?:

Ahhh, close, but no cigar.

Soonvapor:

It's against the law- conspiracy to commit credit card fraud. It will hold in court.
That's like my lawer telling me to commit murder since I'm about to croak.
Conspiracy.

Soonvapor:

That's true, got to have proof.
anything else is heresy.
fraud = PENAL CODE SECTION 186.11
conspiracy = PENAL CODE SECTION 182-185

Soonvapor:

Well I think they're asking for immunity in the case of a client breaking confidence.
But you're right, hard to find a lawer after that.. lolz

Soonvapor:

fraud = PENAL CODE SECTION 186.11
conspiracy = PENAL CODE SECTION 182-185

Soonvapor:

That would be conspiracy to commit fraud.

Soonvapor:

Also right, breaking the code of ethics results in disbarment as well. ;-)

DJ:

The question I would like answered is this:
Who broke the seal of Attorney-Client privilege?
What ever is said between and attorney and their client is supposed to be held in the strictest of confidence.
I hope it wasn't the attorney. Fines and disbarment proceedings would follow very quickly.
If it was the client, I hope they never again need an attorney. No attorney would ever tae them on as a client.

The:

That's why I don't trust lawyers. There the only ones who would think this was OK.
Unfortunately there no stigma about bankruptcy.Most people in Our country spend more than they make.Sooner or later its going to catch up.But don't worry OB will let u go deeper in debt by tapping your 401k.

[email protected]@NCH:

nothing free about what he told client...how does free speech fall under services for paid advice, and coming from your attorney it should be morally and lawfully libeal advice. it seems unethical to tell client to go out and spend more to file bankruptcy, screwing the lenders he already owes even more out of a fair structured settlement

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