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CalCarp

Which is more important for us to preserve and protect? ..Our "Liberty", ..or our "Equality"?

America was: "Conceived in Liberty", ..while, "Dedicated to Equality". Sure we'd like to have as much as possible of both. But when a decision comes to be made (..say, in "taxes", and "spreading the wealth") where we might need to chose which principle shall be held in the higher regard, ..which should it be? In general, "socialists" choose "equality", while "capitalists" choose "liberty"? I believe I will look to see which one best provides for the health of the other. Which do you think does that best?
BlueManta:

Are you talking then or now.? Mixing these issues is a good forum....roads can be built continually to increase the nation for the all. as well as relations....these roads inwardly serve the nation that as a whole defends itself no matter the internal position at a moment...Family is family after all and who would threaten us threatens all of us, and those that divide all of us are an enemy to all of us and therefore are a threat the all of us must protect against happening, thus the Presidency must succeed to Mr McCain because if otherwise it woulf foment a division that would cause this country not able to protect itself outwardly with experience nor inwardly without division interfere with this times...it stands to reason if both camps chose to survive the one must concede the election to Mr McCain, President to US all.

TheYolksNotWhite:

AH PUCH Are you serious? That sound like the mantra of a cult.

CalCarp:

..Puch, ..is that from Sartre, ..or Finnegans Wake? .. :)

CalCarp:

(..sorry!!!) ...please, just say it again???

ChicoAR8:

sheer poetry to my ears...!!!

ChicoAR8:

I've really enjoyed this Question ..I look forward to reading more questions you write...!!!

CalCarp:

Thank you for your voice, Ze'_, ..do you have more to bring about Brazil's experience? All nations are "moving to the future", ..how has Brazil voted to ensure the best result, ..social decisions by committee? ..or social decisions by market?

BlueManta:

CalCarp, you make a good forum

Kim:

Without Liberty I think there is no guarantee of equality so ONLY if I had to choose one it would be "Liberty." Great Q Cal:))
K

CalCarp:

Happy Thursday, Kim! ..It is a kind of "chicken or the egg" puzzle, isn't it! ..but to think Jefferson, ..Lincoln, ..Roosevelt, ..and King, ..all had to deal with this! ..and now WE do!!!! (..ouch! ) ..sort of. All around the world! ..What is it people yearn for? .."equality"? ..or 'liberty"? ..Which do they yearn for first???? ..Which is it that gives "birth" to all the other dreams? Thank you for speaking! .. :)

Kim:

And thank you for your great Q's and A's............Have a good one Cal:))
K

John:

The only two jobs this country had at it's inception was to protect us in case of war and to deliver the mail. Maybe we should get back to the basic's. Give me liberty or give me death. Sorry I forgot who said that. Thats what happens when one is 65 years old you don't remember things. I just wonder how much you don't remember when one is 72 ?

Svwhu:

HAHAHA that was a good one. You made me have to go and look it up. It was Patrick Henry.

CalCarp:

I see you are remembering a whole lot, Al! ..Thank you for the strength!

Twisted sal:

Equal liberty is the answer.

CalCarp:

You have chosen: "Freedom FROM choice." ..and that states your actual position quite clearly. Thank you.

Twisted sal:

Huh? What are you talking about? If you have liberty, you have choice. And if not everyone has liberty, it isn't true liberty because you could lose it to.

Equal liberty or it's Fascism.

CalCarp:

The question was, "Which do you think is the primary, ..the "most important", ..the more fundamental". You very much seem to prefer "not choosing" (..still). That's okay! ..There is no need for you to answer this question.

Twisted sal:

You can't have one without the other.

Svwhu:

I thought that too Nacnudrium, Atleast not in is purest form.

Twisted sal:

Yes, it's a fine point!

ChicoAR8:

He did ask which is more important... You did write Equal first... so I can see where he gets his argument... but then again ... and with all due respect calcarp is still refining his grasp of these social models... so relax NAC...!!!

CalCarp:

Liberty and Equality are not some distant "social models", ..they are facts! ..And a person has economic Liberty to invigorate their world, ..or they don't. Likewise, you either have economic Equality across a society, ..or you don't. There do come days when a choice between Liberty and Equality must be made. Marx hated "Liberty", ..he thought it was totally 'over-rated", ..he dreamed of an "equality" after which everyone would sit peacefully with each other. But if I want to start a new business to produce energy in a new and imaginative way, ..I don't want to have to get permission from some Committee in Congress for that right, ..nor, if my plan works fantastically, and a lot of people "buy" into it, ..do I want to be forced to give up the money that my efforts have earned (and which I hope to use to make further contributions) ..and have it taken and used for somebody else's ideas that do NOT produce economic gain! That is a destructive abuse of that attractive concept of equality.

Montana:

Liberty - there really is no such thing as equality. Although we are all of the human race, we are bont into different circumstances. We are only equal in that we have the liberty to achieve success through our own abilities.

Troutshoe:

Sam I like your style , do you work for Dick Chaney ,you and he sound much alike .I hope you take the compliment's

CalCarp:

The truest "Liberty", ..gives us the most "Equality" of opportunity! Thank you, ..nice aircraft!

ChicoAR8:

Nice Lear...!!!

Soonvapor:

Liberty baby-------
A free market, and capitalism -----------
Just add water--------
If not; Let the MF burn!

CalCarp:

Well, ..I like your first 3 sentences! (LOL) ..thanks, ..good luck!

ChicoAR8:

I'm afraid you have the higher notion of these social models confused...!!! There are plenty of democracies that have freely elected socialist governments.. Liberty is the core of a democracy.. where the people elect or choose what type of government they want...!!! It is even possible for a democracy to elect a communist government as I have personally witnessed in Brazil. The communist parties candidate did not win but they were able to nominate and campaign for their candidate during the elections...!!! Now that is truly a free democracy...!!! At the same time that ensures all forms of government an equal opportunity to establish the type of economy that the people elect...!!! NARF...!!!

CalCarp:

I hear you saying that it is possible for a democracy to "elect" itself into a socialist state. And I agree, although you continue by noting that the people of Brazil chose not to. Thank you. Does it ever happen that a socialist state committee "decrees" itself to change the nature of that state's power into a democracy? ..Has that ever happened?

ChicoAR8:

your Welcome on the first count...You continue to be confused on the second...!!!
I think that confusion is based on your identifying Communism and Socialism as the same thing when they are not...!!!... To continue with the Brazil Analogy... The Party that did win the Election was PT the Workers Party , a Socialist party that put Luis Inacio Lula da Silva or LULA in office and he was subsequently reelected and is now in his second term...!!! Brazil is thriving...!!!
As to the last part of your response... I'm not really clear about your question.

CalCarp:

Both "Socialism" and "Communism" decry the private ownership of either property or choice, selecting "equality" over "liberty". "Capitalism" believes the individual's decisions will best select the avenue for their actions and decisions, believing that we will choose the most efficiently delivered (lowest price), and that the efficiency that is encouraged will benefit the whole by restraining waste of finite resources (..from which we all draw). Capitalism sets liberty over equality. Am I wrong?

CalCarp:

..and that "second part" is this: A "capitalistc democracy" may vote itself to "socialist democracy", ..but may a "socialist democracy" vote itself into a "capitalistic democracy"? ..has that EVER happened? That point is important to me, because I think it says something significant about the availability of "freedom" within each of those systems.

SovieTAviator:

Live free or die that about said it all for me!!!!!!!!

ChicoAR8:

I have yet begun to fight...!!!

Sis:

The liberty to be more equal than somebody else?

CalCarp:

..please explain?

Sis:

I think you know what I mean. The freedom that Republican ideals give the rich and powerful to stagnate the economy by hoarding more and more of the nations wealth while paying fewer and fewer taxes. Meanwhile "Joe Six Pack" gets a measly tax cut, struggling economy, job losses, and a government without the funding to do anything but feed war profiteers (read Iraq) and bailout corporate America.

ChicoAR8:

I like your longer explanation the best...!!

CalCarp:

Sherman! ..That "bailout" that you hate was your Democrat Congress taking your money and "directing" that "public resource" in the way they chose, ..which (..importantly!) just happen to benefit Sen. Obama in the subsequent polls! ..Congress did that? ..You want them to "give you more"???? (.."please, ..No, ..I would rather take care of myself!!!" LOL)

Sis:

The reason that this whole economic mess benefitted Obama in the polls is the same reason it would benefit any generic Democrat. Americans are smart enough to know that it was this insane "any regulations is bad, let the markets self-regulate" philosophy of the Republicans that allowed this mess to take place. And please don't give me that tripe about it being the fault of poor people and the Community Reinvetment Act of 1977. By the way - the bailout was the brainchild of the man your president put in charge of the Dept. of Treasury - it was just worse in the form that he started off with.

CalCarp:

This "bailout" helped Obama because McCain was too honest when he said that he (like everyone else evidently) was no expert on the economy. Obama said, "Gotcha!", ..and next thing you know he is standing there with Warren Buffett, Robert Reich, and Lawrence Summers of Wall Street (all good Democrats) and soon to be Gov. cash recipients. And Democrat Congress is found smearing McCain for not stopping national banks from investing in the "mortgage back securities" trade that Pres. Clinton signed into law in '97. John Dugan of OCC says "Most of the bad mortgage contracts were generated from State Banks" (which are outside Fed Regs) .."in response to Congress' pressure to write more mortgages, however ill advised". That Congressional Act ELIMINATED the most important regulation: The regulation of the dollar. We chose "equality" over "liberty", got neither, and the mistake has cost us badly!

Alwaysintrouble:

What most americans fought and died for was to be able to have a single voice. Not that one voice matters it takes unity. It is my right as an american to voice my opinion as it is yours, Although we may disagree you can still state your opinion. I only wonder if in the future something I say against someone may bring the secret service to my door. No one running for public office should hide anything

CalCarp:

America never wanted to have only one voice on its shores. Should all the others be silent to one? ..or should we all be restricted to a single thought? ..Secondly, you seem to be voting for "free speech" as "the most fundamental goal". That maybe answers someone else's question, but not mine.

ChicoAR8:

Yup it doesn't address the question...!!!

CalCarp:

Ahhhh! ..wait a minute! ..perhaps "chuck" is young enough not-to-have-started his "economic life". Chuck, do you have a job, house payment, kids, utility bill to worry about? ..or are you currently in school, and concerned mostly with the study of ideas? (..which is very good!) If that is the case, then "Freedom of Speech" is, in fact, the most prominent of the "Liberties" which you will find discussed. Later, ..you will get to those bills, and payments, kids, and taxes!!

BlueManta:

Great forum by the way.

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